Love Wins Pt. 3: Hell

Another question that has been circulating regarding Love Wins is “Does Rob Bell believe there is a hell?” Frankly, that’s a question I should ask of myself. Hell was a topic that I always treated similar to a stinky diaper: hold it at arms length and try to get rid of it as soon as possible, preferably in a plastic bag tied so tight that its odor would never offend anyone. Why? Well, I distinctly remember being at a diner with some friends of mine. One of my friends was in Christian school with me and the other three did not appear to be believers. I had gone off to talk with some other friends, but, when I came back, one of my non-believing friends said, “K.J., am I going to hell? So-and-so says that, because I’m Catholic, I’m going to hell.” That was the instant where hell became a stinky diaper. After stumbling through a few questions to determine if she believed as I did and mumbling a few statements about everyone sinning, and how not believing in Jesus, praying a prayer and following after him meant you were going to hell, I said half-heartedly, “I’m sorry, but, yes, you would go to hell…”

At this point, many of you are probably thinking, “K.J. you blew an awesome opportunity to share how she didn’t have to go to hell!” And, I agree that I missed an awesome opportunity, but not to share about how she didn’t have to go to hell. She was so incensed by the whole, “You’re going to hell,” statement when she couldn’t perceive anything that she had done that was worthy of such extreme treatment that I don’t think she cared about heaven one whit, especially if the same God that would send her to hell is the one she would be in heaven with! What I realize now is that I missed an opportunity to share about the amazing love of Jesus Christ that transforms lives and gives hope both for today and for tomorrow. The love of God that cares so much for his creation that he allowed his greatest treasure, Jesus, to take on flesh and willingly walk to his death. Hell, (and, for that matter, heaven as well) is a topic so filled with spiritual, emotional and theological baggage that it has become a peripheral object in my faith journey and my evangelical exploits.

That experience with my friend makes me better appreciate why Rob Bell has written about hell the way that he has. I agree with people like Dr. Todd Mangum from Biblical Seminary who, in his review of Love Wins, says that “Bell has ducked the hard questions, and evaded the hard passages that would most significantly challenge his thesis” (although, as mentioned before, I’m not sure Bell has a ‘thesis’ as much as a series of questions to raise), but at the same time I think that the majority of unbelievers aren’t worried about the “hard questions” or “hard passages.” They are thinking about the picture of hell that has been painted for them by various other Christians, who may be propagating a caricature of hell that is beyond reality. These unbelievers, like my friend, hear of a lake of fire and eternal torment and yet that God loves them and they most likely disconnect completely. In my estimation, the people who really care about these “hard passages” are the ones who are already following Jesus! Which makes me wonder: Do we really do grievous damage to the Gospel of Jesus by allowing for an alternative understanding of hell, especially if the euangelion, the proclamation of the Good News, is to bring people into the Kingdom? I don’t think that we do.

This whole firestorm was ignited partially from people responding to two words, “toxic” and “misguided,” in the preface of Love Wins. Let me take the work of Tim Challies (http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/love-wins-a-review-of-rob-bells-new-book) as a representative response to those words:

The Toxic Subversion Of Jesus’ Message

Bell begins the book with surprising forthrightness: Jesus’ story has been hijacked by a number of different stories that Jesus has no interest in telling. “The plot has been lost, and it’s time to reclaim it.” (Preface, vi [in the pre-release version])

A staggering number of people have been taught that a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better…. This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus’ message of love, peace, forgiveness, and joy that our world desperately needs to hear. (ibid)

You may want to read that again.

It really says that. And it really means what you think it means. Though it takes time for that to become clear.

Reading the quote that Challies chooses here, it is no surprise that people got bent out of shape, as it makes Bell appear to be saying that believing in hell is “misguided and toxic.” But the “…” is the context of the quote, and, as I’ve expressed before, I think many of people’s issues with Love Wins are due to taking things out of context. Here is what was omitted: “It’s been clearly communicated to many that this belief [some go to heaven, most to hell] is a central truth of the Christian faith and to reject it is, in essence, to reject Jesus.” (preface, viii in the published version) So Bell is not discarding the traditional understanding here, but is instead calling “misguided and toxic” the inextricable linkage of Christ and his Gospel to our traditional understanding of heaven and hell to the point that rejecting that understanding is to reject the Gospel.

I agree with Rob Bell that this has been communicated to many people (look at the evangelistic opening question, “If you were to die tonight, where would you go?” and similar questions), and I think his estimation of it is accurate as well. I certainly don’t think that rejecting the traditional understanding of heaven and hell is rejecting Jesus, and I really don’t think that heaven and hell are central tenants of the Christian faith. Jesus came to rescue us from death (Romans 7:24) and to give life, and give it to the fullest (John 10:10), but that life and death need not be unequivocally interpreted as life forever in heaven or hell after our physical death. I think that if heaven and hell were as central as many make it, then when we came to know Jesus, **Poof**, he would take us to heaven. But since he does not, and instead leaves us here to work in his vineyard, I think there is room within the body of Christ for non-traditional understandings of heaven and hell. (For the record, I do not reject the traditional understanding of hell, but I also can’t say that I embrace it as “gospel truth.” And I think heaven will not be somewhere else, but will be a restored version of the creation that God called “very good.”)

The argument Bell makes that hell is here and now resonates deeply with me. It seems logical that through our harmful attitudes and actions towards God’s creation, especially humanity (which was created in God’s own image), we can choose hell now. It also seems logical that a person who repeatedly chooses to separate themselves from God while here on earth would choose to do so even after death, thus meaning that many, even if given infinite choices, would still choose hell. Will I hang my hat on any of these statements and say, “Well, that’s that. Matter settled. The traditional understanding of hell is now debunked?” No, most certainly not, but these thoughts certainly open my eyes to the glorious complexity that is God and proved more fodder for me to pursue in my studies.

To summarize, does Rob Bell believe in hell? Well, the short answer is, “Yes.” But, the caveat is that he does not definitively affirm the traditional evangelical view of hell as a separate location complete with fire, brimstone and eternal torment, however he does not absolutely refute the possibility of hell being that way either. I believe that Bell is speaking out about how rigid we have become in our understanding of something none of us have witnessed and how essential many have made it to be the good news of Jesus. We should strive endlessly to prevent the Gospel from becoming exclusively (or even mostly) about where we go when we die.

Bell says on page 79, “Often the people most concerned about others going to hell when they die seem less concerned about the hells on earth right now, while the people most concerned with the hells on earth right now seem the least concerned about hell after death.” (p. 79) Jesus came to give us life on earth in the Kingdom that he has already initiated. I think our purpose as citizens of that Kingdom is to fight hell now. By fighting the hell we see everyday, we fight against the future hell that none of us have witnessed.

Love Wins Pt. 2: Universalism

The question that on the tongues of almost everyone discussing Love Wins has been, “Is Rob Bell a Universalist?” My answer would be, “No, he’s not, at least not in the traditional, everyone-goes-to-heaven sense of the word.” I say this because 1.) Bell has said plainly he’s not a universalist in a number of interviews (see his pre-release NYC event, his interview with Relevant Magazine, his interview at Denver Seminary, and others) and 2.) his book does not lead me to that conclusion.

Some might want to pounce on my stating “not in the traditional sense” and say, “But, he’s STILL a universalist!” Bell has repeatedly and clearly (a somewhat amazing feat) stated that he DOES NOT believe that there will be a sweeping into heaven of every person ever created, but, for evangelicals, Bell still demonstrates a universalist trajectory when he intimates that there will be opportunities for salvation after death (see chapter 4), and when he claims that people come to Jesus in varied ways, apparently stating that Christians shouldn’t claim a monopoly on salvific truth (see chapter 6). These “accusations” presume that Bell is negating, or at best minimizing, the work of Christ on the cross.

These questions and concerns are, in my estimation, valid points worthy of consideration and discussion. Yet, at the same time, I feel that many of the questions and concerns regarding Love Wins have been raised on portions of the book that are taken out of context, and not taking the context of something into consideration can drastically redefine what is being conveyed. (For example, a physically fit, healthy 20-something saying “I have a headache,” is hardly a reason for grave concern. But that same phrase uttered by a 80-something that has a history of high blood pressure and stroke should incite, at the least, a call to the doctor.) At the same time, I have learned that despite someone perception being different from reality, because it is their perception, it has become their reality and will remain so until they are able to see outside of their perception (and, even then, sometimes people do not change).

It is fair to look at these more nebulous passages and have concerns regarding Love Wins, but I think that if we look at the greater context of the book and where he does make clear statements, then we can see how Bell DOES fully appreciate and require the work of Christ on the cross. To address the issues listed above, Bell at a few points in his book indicates that we do not know for certain what happens after death and that we should admit “with humility the limits of our power of speculation.” (p. 116) Evangelicals have traditionally adhered to a relatively firm (or, in some cases, absolutely firm) doctrine of heaven and hell, which states that you get this life, and this life only, to choose to follow Jesus. If you choose Jesus, you get to go to a beautiful place called heaven. If you do not choose Jesus, you will receive eternal, conscious torment in a place called hell. But none of us have been to either of these places, come back and told others about it, so there is always a certain level of doubt or uncertainty that we need to give room to.

Because of this uncertainty and the tension created by passages that state that only some will enter life and other passages that say that Jesus is saving all things, we see Bell describing post-death opportunities of salvation (echoing church fathers Origen, Eusebius, Jerome and others he lists), but he clearly admits he is speculating and is without an answer. “Will everybody be saved, or will some perish apart from God forever because of their choices? Those are questions, or more accurately, those are tensions we are free to leave fully intact. We don’t need to resolve them or answer them because we can’t, and so we simply respect them, creating space for the freedom that love [which Bell has defined throughout Love Wins as God giving us the freedom to choose] requires.” (p. 115, emphasis mine, he also admits this speculation in interviews with Relevant Magazine and Dr. Scott Wenig at Denver Seminary) Bell’s point (as I see it) is that we do not have sufficient proof to be hanging the entire weight of our faith on that theological coat hook, and that until we get that proof we should exercise humility and curiosity, constantly imploring the Holy Spirit to shed light on that which we don’t know.

Others argue that Bell’s stating that there might be opportunities later minimizes, or negates, the need for people to choose Christ in this life. Bell clearly says that, “This invitation to trust [in Jesus] asks for nothing more than this moment, and yet it is infinitely urgent… Jesus reminds us in a number of ways that it is vitally important we take our choices here and now as seriously as we possibly can because they matter more than we can begin to imagine.” (pp. 196-197) Despite wondering about infinite opportunities to turn to Jesus, Bell seems to be saying, “Choose now! We don’t know what the future holds!”

(Side Note: In his interview at Denver Seminary [about the 56^th minute], Bell indicates that he thinks we should park ourselves right in the middle of the tension of, “Will all, or only some, be saved?” His purpose in doing so was to preserve the unity of God from those who might view him as schizophrenic, being infinitely loving and forever pursuing on one side of death, and legalistically bound and emotionally callused on the other side of death. Personally, I think this is an admirable attempt at dealing with a tremendous spiritual tension.)

Additionally, it is fair and necessary for people to wonder what Bell is getting at in chapter 6 when he refers to Jesus as, “supracultural,” and that, “He is for all people, and yet refuses to be co-opted or owned by any one culture… includ[ing] Christian culture.” (p.151) Honestly, as I read that quotation on its own, it sends a shiver down my spine, but, again, this strikes me as a concern taken out of context.

On pages 154-155, Bell describes inclusivity (all paths lead to heaven as long as your heart is right), exclusivity (only those that have chosen Jesus in the prescribed way will reach heaven) and, “exclusivity on the other side of inclusivity,” which means that Jesus, and Jesus only, is the way to heaven, but there may be ways to Jesus that we may not know of or even understand. Essentially, Bell is saying that people who haven’t “prayed the prayer” or “accepted Jesus as the personal Lord and Savior” or “been born again” as we traditionally describe them and understand them to work may just get to heaven, but they will only be able to do so through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

I don’t think that it is absurd to claim that we (Christians) have no ownership claims on Christ. In fact, he owns us, we are his slaves (Eph. 6:6), but additionally he owns and sustains all things (Col. 1:16-17). So, all of humanity has equal claim to the gift of salvation through Jesus, and, thus, whomever Jesus chooses to save is indeed saved, regardless of whether or not we agree with how they came to Jesus. (Clarification: Only Christ-followers have access to the power of the Holy Spirit, but salvation, which is what Bell is discussing, is for all.)

I believe that this is an orthodox point because it removes us from the position of God who alone knows the hearts of humans (1 King 8:39). Yes, we can have an idea of a person and their orientation towards God based on the fruit of their lives, but we should not presume to judge (Matthew 7:1) because judging requires the rendering of a verdict, which from our human position will always be flawed from lack of information. And since we cannot know undoubtedly, we should always leave room for an omniscient God to work in a way that we would not predict. Like the issue of infinite opportunities for salvation mentioned above, we need to admit where we are speculating and understand where we do not know for certain.

The concern that many have regarding this position (which, incidentally, was reflected by C.S. Lewis, a favored author of many evangelicals) is that, “[a]s soon as the door is opened to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Baptists from Cleveland,” we minimize or negate the necessity of the cross (a concern that was delivered in Stuart McAllister’s interview with Dr. Daniel Block of Wheaton College). Here is where we see the concerned voices missing the greater context of the book, because Bell does not reject repentance or a change of heart (p. 196), which is only necessary if the cross is true, nor does he say that, “hell [or heaven]… isn’t intimately connected with what we actually believe.” (p. 82) Instead Bell is fully asserting the necessity of Jesus’ work on the cross, but saying that we need to be careful of asserting our particular soteriology and/or eschatology as the only soteriology and/or eschatology, which, in my opinion, is a valid, and orthodox, point.

So, is Rob Bell a Universalist? Based on his own words, I’d say, “No,” unless you want to lump anyone who longs for the salvation of all humanity, even to the point of hoping they get infinite chances through Jesus the Christ in the category “Universalist.” If that’s your definition, then, “Yes,” but then I wonder if all followers of Jesus should be Universalists…

Love Wins Pt. 1: Intro

It’s been over two months since Rob Bell’s book, Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived, was released and even longer since the proverbial excrement storm began with three words on Twitter. (Not that anyone needed it, but there’s proof enough that the so-called New Media is changing the way we get info and talk about it, but that’s a topic for another day.) Since then I have read the book twice, read a number of pieces pertaining to the book and discussed the book with those that I could. Now, after going back-and-forth for a few weeks on whether or not to engage this work on the blogosphere, I feel prepared to enter the fray. Frankly, I feel that this is less to share my thoughts with others and more to provide catharsis for myself.

Let me begin by echoing a statement made by Scot McKnight on his blog (www.patheos.com/community/jesuscreed) when he was discussing Love Wins: We need to be approaching this subject with great humility and in prayer, asking that the Holy Spirit will speak to us and through us. As followers of Jesus, we are called to remember that we are all of one body and that Jesus is the head of that body. Difference of opinion is inevitable and healthy; the hand perceives a flower much differently than the eye or the nose, yet they are still part of the same body. Likewise, we believers understand Scripture, our faith and how it applies to our lives in many different ways, yet disparaging those that understand differently from us is not only unproductive (as it engenders a defensive posture from those we disagree with) but it is also against the desires of our head, Jesus. It is for the health of the body of Christ that we need to first pray for humility, divine understanding through the Holy Spirit and graciousness towards our brothers and sisters before we begin to engage this discussion.

I’d also like to preface that I think this discussion is extremely timely and very necessary. With all the chaos going on in the world, and our ability to easily gather information from previously “remote” places, more and more believers have asked me the question, “Listen, do you think we are in the end times?” (Caveat: It is possible that I am merely more aware of this question being asked and that the actual number of people asking the question has not increased. Additionally, the level of chaos in the world may not have actually increased, but our current level of information regarding wars, earthquakes, famines, etc. around the world is undoubtedly much higher than it was even 5 years ago.) Because people are witnessing the apparent revolt of nature and the ever-present violence of humanity against itself, they want (or in some cases, feel "a need") to know what is coming down the pike. They want to know what will happen to them when they die or when Jesus returns. Thus, it is extremely helpful for the body of Christ to be wrestling with this topic at this time.

A third disclaimer must be made in the sake of full disclosure: I’m a fan of Rob Bell. I find his style of communication riveting. I like the questions that his teachings (this book included) bring up, and I LOVE that those questions drive me to look into the Scriptures and the history of the Church to determine where I stand in relationship to those questions. In fact, my experience with Bell’s teachings leads me to conclude that the questions are more his point than delivering answers. Since the questions are the point, I can agree with many other Bell commentators who say that he infrequently gives a straight, clear answer without being personally bothered by his apparent evasion. Truthfully, Bell reminds me (at least according to the descriptions I heard in Church History) of a 1st century Jewish Rabbi, never answering questions with answers, but instead more questions. I hesitate to say this since I’m certain someone out there will prove me wrong, but Bell seems to avoid making solid, clear-cut conclusions, instead preferring to challenge your understanding of the faith you live so that you seek to better understand that faith. In this, I believe he succeeds more often than he doesn’t, and I truly appreciate this.

Despite my stated affection for Rob Bell and his teachings, I am unwilling to allow my affection for a human to come between my desire for Jesus and the truth of his Gospel. In many ways it was my admittance of my fandom that caused me to read Love Wins with an extra critical eye (for those that know me, I know that it is hard to believe I could be more critical, but I tried nonetheless).

My need for an extra helping of salt came when I finished reading Love Wins through the first time. I knew I had to read it again before I made any comments because I felt exactly how my wife felt after she read it; when she finished it she said, “I’m not quite sure what people are all worked up about.” Wanting to avoid a fanboy response, I read it a second time, and I came down more firmly where I was after the first read.

Some may read that and conclude that I am a heretic or apostate or anti-Christ or any number of derogatory terms that have been directed at Rob Bell in the past few months. Well, I’d like to ask you to pick your label off the table for a bit longer, and read what I’m saying first. If you still think I’ve earned it at the end, then, by all means, toss it back on the table (i.e. the comment section) and lets talk about it. Perhaps you’ll rethink your position on Love Wins. Maybe you’ll still disagree with it, but maybe you’ll also agree that there is a certain level of Christian charity that needs to be expressed to those of a different understanding without applying labels. However you come down in the end is between you and God. I’m just asking for you to be sure that you are asking the Spirit to speak.

The End of Things and What it Might Mean

This paper is an attempt to synthesize the events of my Intercultural Ministry Experience (IME) to the Gulf Coast into some sort of coherent, overarching conclusions of epic proportions. I will attempt to understand how what I experienced will affect my understanding of faith in life and how it will affect my future ministry. This will prove to be a significant challenge as the experiences that I had were not-exactly-consistent, nor am I gifted at recognizing integration in such a short time frame. So, get out your reading glasses, grab a glass of beverage (and maybe a snack), get comfy and read on!

In some ways I am envious of the members of my cohort that went to Vietnam and Cambodia. For certain, they did not have the difficulty that I am having determining the aspects of my IME that were cross-cultural, because in many ways, the culture on the Gulf Coast is not all that different from the Northeast. (According to the group of senior citizens from Mobile that we spent time with, our Northern conception of Southerners is based mainly on folks from the Carolinas, Georgia and the northern parts of the Gulf states.) At the same time, due to my health, the likelihood of me spending significant portions of time in Southeast Asia in a ministerial capacity is extremely low, but my likelihood of encountering and ministering to people from different cultural backgrounds in America is quite high. In this respect, my IME will be much more useful to me than I believe journeying to SE Asia would have been.

Our first night in Mobile generated what I would describe as the biggest cultural difference between the Gulf Coast and the Northeast, and that is the aspect of hospitality. Our host family, Arlin and Velma Schrock, were incredibly gracious. When they said, “Make yourselves at home,” I literally felt like they were inviting us into their family for our stay. Honestly, this made me uncomfortable as my understanding of hospitality in the Northeast recognizes the use of this phrase, but also recognizes that there is an underlying sense of boundaries on that hospitality. In other words, hosts in the Northeast convey hospitality (perhaps unconsciously) as, “Make yourselves at home, but realize that the leather chair in the corner is mine, and the sacred TV hour is from 7:00-8:00 when we watch Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune.” (A few Northerners have confronted me on this conclusion saying, “I certainly do not feel that way,” but my past experiences says that they are either in the minority or their boundaries are more subconscious than they can admit to.) My discomfort arose from expecting boundaries, but not knowing where those boundaries could be found. This challenges me to evaluate my understanding of hospitality, where my unconscious boundaries are and how to live a life of true hospitality. Although not used in the same context, I believe that Jesus’ words in Matthew 5, where he talks about going two miles with the person who asks you to go one mile, can apply here in the sense that I should give beyond what is asked or expected.

This sense of hospitality was extremely noticeable in the conversation we had with Reverend Rose Mary Williams of DeLisle Mt. Zion United Methodist Church. At first, Evan and I anticipated our conversation with her revolving around the fact that she is an African-American woman in the pastorate (something that seems more acceptable in the North than in the South), but instead our conversation revolved around the concept of God’s love for the community being manifest through the obedience of Rev. Rose Mary to her calling from the Holy Spirit. She was very clear that she views the entire community around her as her children, and that God has given her a responsibility for all of them. This is counter to what I think is the understanding of Northern pastors. Yes, often we believe that we have a responsibility to the members within our local communities, but we focus almost exclusively on those who are in our church or those that are not in a church at all. We figure (again, perhaps unconsciously) that those involved in another congregation are cared for and not in need of our services. Or perhaps we pay less attention to them because we do not want to initiate a “turf war” with another church. Not so with Rev. Rose Mary. In honesty, she is in an extremely unique situation. She served the community for many years as a public school teacher prior to receiving her call into the pastorate, and she acknowledges that God used that time to open the entire community up to her. She was not viewed as either a female, African-American or United Methodist pastor or any combination of the three, but was instead viewed as a member of the community who had frequently evidenced care and concern and now just happens to be a female, African-American, United Methodist pastor. Because of her continually cultivated relationship with the community, she has been able to develop a tremendous level of ecumenism in the community for great works such as the local Marsha Barbour Community Center. Additionally, her following of the Holy Spirit and the vision that he has laid on her heart causes people of all race, culture and creed to seek her out for guidance, and yet she is not viewed by other pastors as invading their “turf.” Speaking to Rev. Rose Mary was so uplifting and challenging that I could ask no questions, but could only sit and wonder if I could be that faithful to God and the people he loves. Please, God, may it be so!

A recurring thing that we heard while we were down on the Gulf was the long-term toll that first Katrina and then the oil spill has had on the Gulf. I was amazed at how many people are trying to look past those things and move on with their lives, which is a real testament to the resiliency of the Gulf Coast residents. But it was not very difficult to get past the, “Well, what can you do but move on?” veneer, and see how these two events have impacted each person down there. Speaking with the senior citizens, you see a lot of looking back to past storms and difficulties and the resultant faith that the community will survive and move on, given enough time. With Kim, an older, Vietnamese oyster-shucker, you hear gratefulness that she is being provided for by BP, but you hear sadness as she describes how that compensation is less than if she were working and worry about how she will pay for her home. For Billy, a shrimper whose boat was severely damaged in Katrina, life has gone on running another persons boat and some occasional work doing cleanup, but he doubts that fishing will ever return to the way it was before the spill, at least in his lifetime. Nelson Roth, the founder of Relevant Ministry (RM, www.relevantministry.org), describes how hearing the wind blowing the tree branches against his house automatically evokes mental images of Katrina. These people have literally weathered the storm, but the storm has not left them unchanged. God be praised for the ministries like RM in the Gulf Coast area that are seeking to help people cope with what has happened and to be able to move on physically, emotionally and spiritually!

Of great interest to both Evan and I was the work at Relevant Ministry in the Gulfport, MS area. Listening to both Nelson and Jeff Hegstrom, the director of RM, you can hear how their hearts overflow with compassion for the people of the Gulf Coast through the pastors and churches of the area. So many pastors, they say, have their hands full trying simply to maintain their church congregations. There is little time for them to deal with their own wounds or to look into community outreach. Pastors are often disheartened and overwhelmed, have become OK with the status quo or, sometimes, become bitter and leave ministry. As a pastor, I can see how this would play out in a community. Pastors in the Northeast can have difficulty managing a church with a few members that are unemployed, some that are experiencing financial, emotional, or relational distress and maybe one or two that are facing housing issues. Imagine what it is like when the majority of your congregation is experiencing one or more of those issues? It would be crippling! Add to that the natural tendency of many pastors to be the “Super Pastor” who is able to handle everything by himself, and you have a recipe for disaster. RM seeks to help the community by rowing congregations of love and support through providing churches with interns who can relieve their pastors of some of the ministry load. In honesty, Jeff and Nelson create such a sense of passion, excitement and necessity-of-mission that I briefly wondered what it would be like to work with them in a long-term capacity. However, I realize that God has me in the position that he does for a reason, and I was able to resist the Siren’s Song, but my desire to try to find ways to help them in their ministry persists. The big question now is, “How?” Perhaps through creating ties with Biblical, or perhaps with Evan being able to create connections with Philadelphia Biblical University we can find ways of getting potential interns in contact with RM.

We did have the great opportunity to experience a true intercultural encounter when we spent Tuesday with Bounpheng Thammavong, or Pheng (pronounced “Ping”). Pheng had been over in the U.S. and Canada for 11 months as an intern from Laos, and was two days from returning when Evan and I arrived in Mobile. It was a great joy to have Pheng give us an intercultural view on his intercultural experience, which was doubly intercultural as he was spending time with Vietnamese immigrants in America! But these things did not faze him. He was caring towards all whom we saw him interact with, and they responded in kind despite any language difficulties thus illustrating that love and care can transcend any cultural boundary. We also learned much about Pheng at a Thai restaurant owned by Laotians, and learned that there are many similarities between the Lao and Thai cultures as Pheng conversed fluidly with our Thai waiter.

Pheng took us to a Laotian Buddhist temple near Bayou La Batre. While Evan, Pheng and I wandered around the small temple that was there and Pheng told us what he knew of Buddhism in Laos, one of the monks came out to speak with us. It was so beneficial to have Pheng there as the monk spoke virtually no English. We discovered that the monk was responsible for constructing most of the statuary found on the property and that he had constructed everything out of tools that he had made. When asked why he was here, the monk responded that he had a passion for teaching people about Lao culture, but that it was extremely difficult for him here since he spoke so little English. He was discouraged and wanted to go home, but he was being told that he was extremely valuable to the temple and would be needed longer. Our monk could not explain all of the statuary that he had built, which, in our opinions, would be the equivalent of a pastor not being able to explain the symbolism in baptism or communion, and thus very odd. It was also interesting to hear that Buddhists (at least from the monks experience/knowledge) do not engage in proselytization. (Also, according to Pheng, this question “gave us away” as Christians to the monk.) It was also interesting to hear the difference between Lao Buddhism and Vietnamese Buddhism as expressed through Thich Nhat Hanh and my research for our presentation on religion. Our Lao monk (who would follow Theravada Buddhism) was much more about pressing on into the afterlife/Nirvana than Vietnamese Buddhists (who follow Mahayana Buddhism), which are much more concerned about the interaction of humanity with the land and the purification of the land.

Pheng took us to visit Kim, the elderly, Vietnamese woman who made her living as an oyster-shucker that was mentioned above. She was such an incredibly sweet lady, who welcomed Evan and I as warmly as she welcomed Pheng. Despite not being able to communicate clearly, we were able to get glimpses into her life. Her life would be described by our standards as one of poverty and dysfunction. She lives in a fairly run-down trailer with a wood-pallet walkway that is sparsely appointed and relatively dirty. She lives there with her son and their flea-bitten dog. The son, who is a welder that speaks practically no English, is out of work because there is little-to-no ship building/repair going on since the fishing boats are not in regular service. Her daughter lives down the road, but there is little interaction between Kim, her daughter and Kim's grandchildren as Kim and her son-in-law do not get along. Kim, as mentioned before, is out of work and is being compensated by BP, but not nearly as much as she makes working. Kim, sitting on the sofa holding onto Pheng’s hand, told us about her health before meeting Thi, a young Vietnamese man who has served as an interpreter for and missionary to the local Vietnamese community. She was constantly ill, stooped over when she stood, shuffled when she walked and was unable to work. Thi came and introduced Kim to Jesus, and they prayed for her and she was healed! As I said in my blog, I am not sure if the healing was immediate or happened over time, but that does not matter nearly as much as Kim understanding and accepting that Jesus was for her and that he loved her and gave himself for her. Now, Kim practically bounces around the room. I love how throughout the conversation Kim would point to a picture of Jesus by the door and say, “He number 1. Number 1!”

The last thing that I want to mention about the Bayou is the Sunday evening that we spent with the Vietnamese community. It was an interesting evening. To start things off, J.D., Evan and I drove around Bayou La Batre trying to find Kim’s house so that we could take her to the Bible study if necessary. Evan and I were praying that God would be gracious and give us the ability to help J.D. find the house, which he had not been to before and we had only been to once. Lo and behold, God was gracious and answered our prayers when we found the entrance to Kim’s street next to the billboard with “the creepy Jesus picture” (Evan’s wording)! After ensuring that Kim had a ride, we headed over to the community center in the Bayou for the Bible study. Evan and I waited and spoke with Tran, a young Vietnamese lady who was going to help J.D. with translation, while J.D. ran out to pick up some of the Vietnamese teens who were coming by. Tran was very similar to the students that J.D. brought to the Bible study in that she was more American than Vietnamese. She spoke fluent English, dressed like any other American her age and was interested in American things (she kept telling us that if we had time we should go to Biloxi and gamble a little or go to Pensacola to see the beaches). Perhaps this is because she came over from Vietnam when she was very young. After a bit, the adults went into a room for a Vietnamese Bible study, while Evan and I stayed with the three Vietnamese youth, Phi, Laura and Liu, and a group of kids and a pastor from a church near Daphne, AL. It was interesting watching the group dynamic: the three Vietnamese students were obviously the ones on the outside even though they were on their home turf simply because they were in the minority. Based on how the Vietnamese students handled that (withdrawal until they were gradually coaxed out), I wonder if feeling like the outsider is typical for them even in their everyday life? I feel more compelled to believe this because, outside of “special” places like Asian food stores or restaurants, you did not see many Asians despite the Bayou having a significant Asian population (granted, I spent a total of 3 days in the area, so I am by no means an expert, but others who have been in the area longer affirmed the insular nature of the Asian communities).

I would be remiss to not reflect on our time with Robert Thrower, an ordained Southern Baptist minister and Poarch Creek Indian medicine man. What an enigma to meet a man who has been ordained and served as a pastor, evangelist and prophet for 20 years and has been a medicine man for 9 years. Of course, the big question that arose was, “Are these two beliefs compatible?” I cannot give a “yes” or “no” answer, but I can say, “Well, maybe.” To hear Robert describe his practice is to hear someone who performs traditional rituals interpreted through a Christian lens. “Sacred” plants and other items are symbolic and not at all magical. Its like using bread and wine/grape juice for communion: you could use Oreos and milk and still have the same service, or you could skip the elements altogether and simply remember the sacrifice that the Christ made on our behalf. But having something tangible, something of significance makes it easier to engage and remember. So, by Robert’s description, a traditional ceremony asking the Great Spirit for guidance is an elaborate prayer to God that involves external symbols and, sometimes, a lasting reminder such as a rock. Is this synergism or heterodoxy? Perhaps, and I think that seeing Robert’s practice in action over time would give better sight into this, but only having 3 hours of interaction with him reveals something that looks orthodox, but still leaves a little twist of apprehension at the end.

What does all this mean for me in my ministry? First, I think my experience will really affect how I view minorities in my immediate surroundings, whether they are cultural, racial, spiritual or whatever. There are dynamics of being in the minority that I can never understand, nor should I try to pretend like I do. I have to not only strive to TREAT people like they are equals, but actually LIVE like they are equals. I also have to avoid doing so in a Colonial-type of way where I view myself as the blessed benefactor who is there to share with them out of my abundance. No, instead I need to realize that I am no different; that what each of us have is what has been given us by God for his purposes. Understanding that I function as an agent of God’s kingdom is what I need to strive for.

Second (but related to the first) is that I need to review how I perceive and live out hospitality. Am I so discomfited by genuine hospitality because I have been lying to myself for many years about my willingness to share of my possessions and myself? I think the shameful answer here is, “Yes.” I think that I have unconsciously (but sometimes consciously) held back on what I had to give because I wanted to be sure that there would be enough for me and my comfort as a middle-class American. Why? The only true answer to this is self-centeredness. “I” come before “you,” which is totally not the way of Jesus. The things I labeled “mine” I need to relabel “his.”

My third takeaway stems from the previous in that I need to not only give of my things, but also of myself and develop stronger relationships with those that I wish to impact for Jesus. I am not starry-eyed enough to imagine that I can have deep relationships with each and every person I wish to impact. I know that is impossible, but I can open myself up to the relationships that God would have grow deeper. I think that I have gotten so sick of developing friendships and then having to walk away from them due to circumstances that in many ways I have become very cautious as to what relationships I allow to develop. Who am I to judge which relationships will last and which will not? I can barely see past my nose! God sees all the way into infinity, and I need to stop hindering his work by interfering with my limited sight.

Lastly, I have seen many differences in religious preference and ministerial philosophy on this trip. There are aspects in each interaction where some reservations or doubts arose, but I can also say that in each interaction the desire, or intent, to serve the Kingdom of God was there. Whether that intent was borne of the Spirit or borne of the flesh, I cannot judge, nor is it my place to. All I can do is pray that God will be at work in these different contexts, that his name will be glorified and that his kingdom will come quickly.

Nawlins and a rainy Sunday

Days 6 & 7 are getting a combined post. Why? B/c our day in New Orleans was great, but not exactly "reflection-blog" material (although I could post some good restaurant reviews!), and Sunday was busy, but not busy (if you are in ministry, you get this; if not, you may not).

New Orleans was really cool. I slept in (7:45 when the people accessing the elevators which were right in by our door started to go up and down), then blogged then headed out for breakfast with Evan. We ate at an awesome restaurant where an older, African-American woman was our waitress. She would've made my Grandma proud b/c she was yelling at Evan and I for having our elbows on the table. Awesome breakfast food at the Old Coffee Pot on St. Peters St. and I have to stop there or I will go on forever.

We visited St. Louis Cathedral/Basilica, which was very cool. There was a baptism going on while we were there. I sat near it and tried to eavesdrop. The priest was really cool and was sharing a lot of wisdom that we would probably hear at an protestant baby dedication/baptism/baptication. Fascinating also to see the varied icons around in the statuary, stained glass and paintings. I've never spent much time in a Catholic church, but maybe I should. Get to know some more and understand some more.

No Cafe Du Monde on the first pass by b/c we were too full from breakfast. But we moseyed onto the French Market. Interesting stuff and interesting people. Didn't buy anything, though. No Cafe Du Monde on the second pass.

Evan drove us out to the 9th ward and Chalmette were the levees were the most damaged from Katrina and where he did some work two years ago. It was interesting to see how little has been rebuilt in some of the residential areas, especially along the levees. You would see 1-2 house per block, and the rest were just empty lots.

Had ice cream for lunch at the Creole Creamery (Evan has a weakness for ice cream). We both got some "unique" flavors to try. Of the two scoops we got, we each had one winner and one not-exactly-a-loser-but-definitely-not-a-winner flavor (note to self: no matter how much you like dark chocolate, it does not combine well with ginger).

Back then into the French Quarter. We had some time before dinner and I wanted some beignets, but I passed b/c I didn't want to ruin my dinner (aren't you proud, mom?!). So, no Cafe Du Monde on pass 3.

Dinner at the Redfish Grill: Excellent. Gumbo = to die for. My only complaint is that I didn't get the Jambalaya instead of the hickory-smoked redfish (which was still very good). For dessert, a chocolate bread pudding, which Evan and I shared. If the name itself didn't already clue you in, let me spell it out for you: A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

After that, the two hour drive back to Mobile. Without Cafe Du Monde, which for a donut lover like myself is bordering on tragic. Thus ended day 6. (See? Not a ton of reflection materials, but a bunch of food reviews.)

Sunday started out having rained over night and threatening more rain through out the day. Evan and I drove over to Way of Life church. On the way, we got a call from J.D. saying that the youth from the bayou would not be joining us today and that I should instead be prepared to share my story in 10-15 minutes during the service. I said, "Sure!" but inside laughed hysterically as I remembered that it took me about 3 hours to get Evan through my story. Three hours down to 15 minutes? Well, I got it into 20, so that's pretty good.

Evan preached from Luke 18 about humility. Great stuff! The man's got a gift for making scripture understandable and with clear take-aways. A number of people came up and thanked us (especially Evan) for our sharing with them.

After service, we mingled with some of the people from Way of Life, and then went out to eat at Yen's Vietnamese restaurant with J.D. and a young man named Chris from the church. Very good food, but I forgot how filling Vietnamese food is. We had some good conversations, but there was some awkwardness here and there. Chris is a younger (24 y/o) lay person and J.D. is an older minister and Evan and I are younger ministers, so we could talk with J.D. in some avenues that kind of left Chris out, and then we would talk with Chris about somethings that J.D. was not hip to. Regardless, I enjoyed the fellowship and the food.

Evan and I were able to head back to the house for a brief time before we headed into Bayou La Batre to try to find Kim's trailer and go to the Vietnamese Bible Study. Trying to find Kim's house was in many ways the blind leading the blind: J.D. knows the area, but had not been to Kim's house. Evan and I had been to Kim's, but couldn't exactly tell J.D. where it was. But we took a shot at it anyway. While we were looking, I was praying that we would be able to find it. Kim was very distressed when we were there with Pheng that she would get forgotten about with Thi being gone. Wouldn't you know it? God answered my (and I later found out also Evan's) prayer! We found Kim's house and were able to make sure that she could make it to the Bible study. Yes, her son was bringing her, and he would stay as well!

After finding Kim, we went to the community center. Some of the Vietnamese had already gathered there, but we were soon joined by a pastor and a group of students from his church in Daphne, who were there to hang out with the Vietnamese kids. Eventually, we had about everyone that J.D. figured would show up and we split into the older/little-English-speaking crowd and younger/English-speaking group. (Evan and I stuck with the younger, English speakers.) It was interesting b/c only three of the Vietnamese students showed up and they were outnumbered 2:1 by the other church's kids. It was noticeable that the Vietnamese kids were a bit uncomfortable (which is one reason I wanted to stay with the younger group), but we started to play a game (Ninja!) and they loosened up a little. We had a little Bible study from John 21 on continuing to do the good that we know to do when we aren't totally sure what all we are called to do in our future. It was interesting to see a difference in Bible literacy from our area to this area (I was EXTREMELY surprised that none of these junior high kids could tell us that Judas was the one that betrayed Jesus). Other than that, these kids (including the Vietnamese) were not much different from the kids that I work with at Locust Valley. I don't know why I was anticipating a radical difference, but I was.

Tomorrow, we travel home. I am so excited to do that, but I will miss some of the people that we have met and I will be praying for God's blessings on their ministries down here in the Gulf.

One ordained medicineman and a bag of donuts to go, please.

Friday was an interesting and awesome day. Velma served Evan and I an incredible breakfast with pancakes and peaches and coffee, and then we embarked on an hour long journey up to the Poarch Creek Nation near Atmore, AL. After going to the old Community Preservation Center, we were directed to the new one. There we met Robert Thrower, who is the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer. It was obvious that the new center was undergoing some construction, which is why there were no signs displaying its location. Robert gave us a your of the facility while giving us a bit of history about the Poarch and about himself, and, man, could that guy talk (we were with him about 3.5 hours, and he talked 90% of that time). While the history of the Poarch people was interesting, it was much more interesting to discover that Robert was ordained in the Southern Baptist Church 20 years ago and has also been a medicine man within the tribe for 10 years, something he also believes was a calling from God, which of course made Evan and my ears perk up.

Robert sees very little difference in what is believed and practiced by a medicine man and what is believed in practiced as a minister. He explained that being a medicine man does not require shamanistic practices such as spells, talismans, etc., although some medicine men do practice things like that. Instead, he says that being a medicine man incorporates the spiritual guidance and counseling of ministry with natural medicinal/healing practices creating a very holistic approach towards people. Robert was not coy with us at all, he clearly stated that he knew we would be trying to sniff out heresy in what he was saying, and if I learned anything from Robert it is that he certainly and wholeheartedly believes what he is saying. And honestly, from the descriptions he gave us of his ministry as a medicine man, I didn't see anything that was glaringly incompatible with Christian ministry. I heard a number of things that were worthy of further consideration/investigation, which Robert thoroughly encouraged and wanted us to get back to him on if we saw something that was out of line with Christian orthodoxy. "It's iron sharpening iron, man," he said.

After leaving Robert, Evan and I headed to New Orleans. Incredible time so far. We ate Po'boys, got beignets and coffee and then waited in line for 20 minutes at Preservation Hall for some jazz before we figured we could find jazz somewhere else without having to wait an unspecified amount of time to stand in a crowded room to listen to jazz. This is New Orleans, after all. So we walked out to the canal and sat there for awhile to cool off (thousands of people milling around crowded streets on a humid night makes for sweaty seminary students). By the water, we had great conversations (which have been pretty typical for the trip). We left the water front and went and sat in a restaurant on Decatur and listened to a decent Jazz quartet, while sippin' on cool drinks (I rediscovered my affinity for Tonic water and lime, something I acquired as a kid). All-in-all, an awesome time and I am looking forward to Saturday (except the heat during the day)!

To Mobile and Beyond!

Thursday, after a great breakfast and conversation w/ Jeff and Angie, we spent some time with the kids from Bethany helping them run their Basketball and Volleyball camps at the MBCC. Evan helped with Basketball and I helped with Volleyball. It was hot, Hot, HOT! I don't know how the kids did it each day standing out in the sun trying to teach these sports to such little kids. But they did. Thankfully, Evan and I were rescued from the drenching heat by Nelson Roth (although, by this point I was already soaked).

Nelson is Angie's dad and the founder of Relevant Ministry. He moved down to the Gulfport region in 2004 to pastor. He weathered Katrina huddled under a sofa with his wife. Post-Katrina, his church spent loads of time, energy and money housing and supporting relief groups that were providing cleaning, reconstruction and community support needs. He and his Elders determined that this was not something that the church could, or should, sustain as a church, that their responsibility was to be a church and not a relief organization. However, the understanding that the community still had a long way to go to rebuild physically, emotionally and spiritually led them to spin off their relief efforts forming Relevant Ministry. He has a pretty amazing passion for the pastors and people of the Gulf, and is trying to bring down interns to provide assistance to the pastors and churches of the area. He told us about how deeply Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is affecting the community by sharing how anxious he can get when he hears the wind plow the branches of a tree against his houses windows, reminding him of Katrina.

I realize that when many people think of the Gulf Coast post-Katrina, their thoughts typically gravitate to the cleaning and rebuilding efforts, but I bet few people think of the spiritual and emotional scars that remain. Nelson said that many people refuse any sort of help b/c they can always see someone worse off then themselves. This is has got to be even more true of pastors, who naturally have a tendency to try to be Superpastor. Now, post-Katrina, they are susceptible to this even more considering the elevated need to the people. So, anyone reading this that has experience in counseling and maybe looking for an opportunity to serve, let me know. I bet Jeff can find many ways of using you in Gulfport!

After meeting with Nelson, we traveled back to Mobile. We spent a quiet time in the afternoon at Arlin and Velma's. (Funny side story, Evan decided to take a nap and said he would wake up at 5. I decided to work on my blog posts. After working awhile, I noticed that my computer clock was showing 5:30, which is about when we wanted to go eat. So, I packed up, went upstairs and woke Evan up, only to find out that my computer clock is on Eastern time and not Central. Oops!! Fortunately, his alarm went off right after I realized I was an idiot, so I didn't feel as bad.)

Ate at a place called the Mellow Mushroom near the University of Southern Alabama. AWESOME pizza, and apparently a chain, so if you see one, eat there! And for desert: Fresh, Hot Krispy Kreme donuts. Good stuff!